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‘Occupy’ Movement Needs Math Lesson
By WAYNE LUSVARDI You might remember the 1965 movie “Dr. Zhivago,”about a physician and poet dislocated by the Russian Revolution of 1917. Zhivago’s family had to flee the Bolshevik revolutionaries to find food and firewood and arrives at their isolated country home, only to learn it has been boarded up with a sign indicating confiscation by the Soviet State — a.k.a., “the people.” Flash forward to the City of Pasadena in November 2011, where the Occupy Pasadena Movement, led by local Progressive activist Patrick Briggs, has organized a rally to impose a $70 million tax on 1 percent of the highest income households in Pasadena to make the fire stations in Pasadena earthquake safe. This is in keeping with the “We are the 99%” and “Tax the Rich” slogans of the Occupy Movement. Briggs and his wife became famous worldwide in 2005 when they fought the city sign ordinance to put up an anti-war banner on their home, which read, “Bush Lied, People Died.” Briggs is a leader of the “Democracy for America” organization founded by Democrat Howard Dean. Briggs defines 1 percent as those with incomes over $200,000 per year, which would actually be about 9 percent, not 1 percent, of Pasadena’s households. The top 1 percent of income earning households equates to about 547 households that would be subject to the tax in a city with a population of about 145,000 people and 54,667 households. Confiscation or a Tax Bond?Unless Briggs proposes the city confiscate the $70 million overnight, which would surely cause instant “tax flight” by the “rich,” a municipal bond would have to be floated for 20 years at about a 5 percent interest rate to finance the construction of new fire stations. That would equate to $5,543,000 per year in bond payments or $10,133 per taxed household per year. The bond would have to be secured by real property tax rather than an income tax, otherwise taxpayers could just flee and avoid the tax. To impose a property tax would require a two-thirds vote, which may be unlikely even in Progressive Pasadena. The proposal to seismically retrofit existing fire stations or build all brand new stations was hatched by Pasadena’s mayor as a way to stimulate local jobs and the economy. Pasadena’s Fire Station No. 33, coincidentally located in the wealthiest neighborhood, has been deemed structurally unsafe, and a replacement site for a new fire station has not been found, even though the city owns an abandoned former National Guard Armory property in the same area. Tax CapitalizationEven if a property tax was approved by the voters, the real estate market would just adjust the extra tax burden by the one percent property tax rate, resulting in a drop in the property tax base of $554,300,000 and a commensurate loss of $5,543,000 in property taxes. So, to collect $5.543,000 in property taxes per year to fix fire stations would result in an equal drop in property taxes in what is called tax capitalization. Unlike good public schools, libraries or parks and open space, earthquake-safe fire stations don’t add or capitalize value to high-income estate homes, especially when their replacement has been contrived as a jobs and economic stimulus program. And to think in progressive Pasadena the pubic editor of one of the local newspapers once had the audacity to call the Tea Party “wingnuts.” It is like we’re living out some Occupier’s fantasy scene from the movie Dr. Zhivago.
Tags: Dr. Zhivago, Howard Dean, Occupy Pasadena, Patrick Briggs, Wayne Lusvardi Comments(37) |
May 23, 2012
One has to laugh at how anti-OWS journalists single out isolated factions of the OWS protests to smear and taint the movement. It wasn’t long ago when extremists from the other side diparaged the Tea Party by claiming that their movement was made up of ‘redneck racist cross-burning KKK members’. Naturally, at the time I condemned that too. But now we see the same tactics from the far right. Some mentally disturbed man takes a dump on a police car at an Occupy rally and Fox News jumps all over it. As we know, these are all tactics used to protect the criminal banksters and the Wall Street financial terrorists who literally sucked trillions of capital from Main Street and left millions unemployed and destitute.
Perhaps some of you have read the news about the Republican (Tea Party) led lobbyist group called “CLCG”. Leaders of this lobbyist group who happen to be former employees of Republican House Speaker John Boehner sent a memo to the American Banker Association (ABA) asking for $850,000 to lodge a smear campaign against the OWS movement and the politicians that support it. Some of the Tea Party leaders like Joe Walsh and Steve Southerland have REFUSED to address the massive Wall Street fraud that has resulted in global economic decline worldwide.
The Banks want to be treated as “people” when it comes to using their lobbyists to buy off politicians on Capital Hill. But they decry being treated like “people” when it comes to being held accountable for the massive criminal finanicial fraud and drug money laundering that they have perpetrated. Anybody with two brain cells can easily see the disconnect here. Some people simply refuse to see the TRUTH and continue the smear campaigns to protect the elite.
The Republican Party now controls the House by a large majority. It has the power to literally shut down the agencies and departments that REFUSE to take prosecutorial action against the Wall Street crooks. Yet they do NOTHING to bring us JUSTICE – which they prefer to spell “JustUs”.
No more excuses. The Occupy Movement has two major goals: 1) to restore EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW and 2) to take massive lobbyist bribes that buy political votes off the table.
Anyone who disagrees with those two laudable objectives really has no right to the protections afforded by our beloved US Constitution. You deserve what you tolerate.
Instead of searching out ISOLATED DIFFERENCES – why not search out WIDESPREAD SIMILARITIES that both sides of the political spectrum desire? Why do you promote the concept of “divide and conquer”? What exactly is YOUR motivation here?
1) Please define “EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW”. What exactly do you mean?
2) “to take massive lobbyist bribes that buy political votes off the table”. Does this include banning political spending by labor unions? Since OWS funders and supporters include SEIU and AFL-CIO, I’m guessing that’s not what you mean.
“1) Please define “EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW”. What exactly do you mean?”
Common sense. Holding everyone equally accountable for violations of the law regardless of their socioeconomic, political or social status in life. It is what it is. The phrase is unambiguous. So now are we going to argue what the definition of “is” is?
“Does this include banning political spending by labor unions? Since OWS funders and supporters include SEIU and AFL-CIO, I’m guessing that’s not what you mean”
Absolutely. Do you think I’m going to come on this board with a straight face and call for bank lobbyist reform and not for public labor union lobbyist reform?
All “people” whether we are talking homo sapiens or massive corporations should be limited to $1000 or less political contributions for any one candidate.
Goldman Sachs gave Obama close to $1M for his first election campaign.
No wonder the puppet has bent over backwards to protect those slugs and let the ordinary American citizens twist in the wind.
And it’s not just Obama. It’s 90% of Congress too.
1) Where does our law make exceptions for these things? Can you name a law that makes exceptions on these bases?
2) Occupy does not stand for this, at all. You can’t tell em straight-faced that SEIU and AFL-CIO are supporting Occupy because they want to curtail their own political influence. That’s patently absurd.
Also, I think you’re confused about the Citizens United decision:
a) Citizens United upheld political contribution limits.
b) The court struck down political expenditure limits on corporations and labor unions.
c) The court’s rationale for striking down corporate/union expenditure limits is the same as its prior decisions striking down individual expenditure limits – they violate the First Amendment because corporations and labor unions are just groups of people united for a common purpose.
The solution to corrupt government is not to limit the ability of individuals or groups to influence government. The solution is to limit the power of government to influence individuals – limited government.
“1) Where does our law make exceptions for these things? Can you name a law that makes exceptions on these bases?”
Why ask these silly questions? Of course the letter of the law doesn’t make an exception. The law simply is not being applied to the TBTF’s and the connected insiders while the full extent of the law is being applied to everyone else. To deny that is to live in a vacuum.
“2) Occupy does not stand for this, at all. You can’t tell em straight-faced that SEIU and AFL-CIO are supporting Occupy because they want to curtail their own political influence. That’s patently absurd”
The 99% consists of many different political ideologies – from dyed in the wool liberal to ultra conservative. Hence, it’s called “the 99%”. That is the beauty of it. A wide spectrum of American citizens coming together and demanding justice. Just because the AFL-CIO participate it doesn’t mean that they are in charge of the Occupy movement. No one is in charge. Things like EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW and a bought off Congress affect us all. Those who are too blind to see the SIMILARITIES are promoting ‘divide and conquer’ which puts us back to square one again. The Wall Street crooks are scared crapless over the possiblity of the Tea Party and the Occupy movement joining forces to protest similar concerns. The Republican neocon lobbyist group “CLCG” that I referenced in my first comment is trying to prevent this with a proposal to smear the OWS movement with $850,000 of bankster money. All the pieces of the puzzle are falling into place here. The fraudster supporters can run – but they can’t hide.
“The solution to corrupt government is not to limit the ability of individuals or groups to influence government. The solution is to limit the power of government to influence individuals – limited government”
That is such a disjointed and contradictory statement. The massive bribes paid to the crooked politicians is what gives them their power and their ability to game the system. We must limit the bribes to reduce the power. You can’t reduce the power by allowing the bribes to continue. What you say makes no sense to a reasonable person.
The Tea Party shares my goals of limited government and values liberty. Occupy is a union-funded, Marxist-organized rabble whose goal is socialism and whose values don’t reflect 99% of this country.
“The Tea Party shares my goals of limited government and values liberty. Occupy is a union-funded, Marxist-organized rabble whose goal is socialism and whose values don’t reflect 99% of this country”
The Tea Party hasn’t done JS to change the status quo. The leaders have been morphed into the mainstream Republican party which is bought and paid for by the Wall Street crooks. Talk is cheap. At least the Occupy movement is making progress. And to claim that Occupy protests is “marxist-organized rabble” is pure ignorance that is undeserving of another response. I have already shot down such palaver in previous comments.
If you lie down with dogs, you’ll wake up with fleas. http://tinyurl.com/6wxfkwn
“If you lie down with dogs, you’ll wake up with fleas. http://tinyurl.com/6wxfkwn”
So you must resort to Andrew Breitbart blogs to prove a point? Sad.
Most of the violence I have seen at the Occupy protests was perpetrated by the cops. you know – like spraying peaceful protesters in the face with mace or shooting 2x Iraqi war vets in the head with projectiles and them leaving him in the middle of the street to die. The Occupy movement is almost exclusively peaceful. So again, you are projecting another falsehood.
BTW, here is one of the Tea Party founders arrested for dealing drugs. Yet I would never project that all Tea Party members are drug dealers. It would be absurd. Yet the Occupy movement opponents are looking for any little bit of negative news to paint everyone associated with Occupy as villians. That is pure propganda. The same kinds used by the Nazis and the Communists.
You are making a much bigger statement about yourself than anyone else.
http://heraldbulletin.com/local/x175060227/Tea-Party-founder-arrested-on-drug-charges
Oh, btw, did you see this video? It was taken at a recent Occupy event at UC Davis. Who is perpetrating the violence here? If I sprayed someone in the face with mace who was no threat to me I would be subject to a long jail sentence. So why does the law not apply to the other side? hmmm???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AdDLhPwpp4
So, you don’t disavow the violent revolutionaries in the Occupy movement? That’s not 99% of the US.
“So, you don’t disavow the violent revolutionaries in the Occupy movement? That’s not 99% of the US”
There are nuts in every human organization. I posted an article showing that one of the Tea Party founders was arrested for dealing drugs. The comment is strangely ‘awaiting moderation’ after it was already posted. Would anyone in their right minds therefore claim that all Tea Party members are drug dealers? Of course not. Your preposterous leaps are absurd.
Why don’t you SPECIFICALLY respond to any of my counterarguments to your prior comments? You leap from one subject to the next. I respond – and then you bring up an unrelated topic of discussion – as if bouncing from one brick wall to another.
It’s hard to respond to arguments that are largely incoherent leftist hyperbole. That being said, you refuse to acknowledge the true nature of Occupy.
Occupy was organized by the Marxist group Adbusters. http://tinyurl.com/8784aed Their leaders are Marxist organizations. http://tinyurl.com/8x74msr One spokesperson for Occupy is self-described Communist revolutionary Van Jones. http://tinyurl.com/87es79n
A large majority of protesters are union members. http://tinyurl.com/864apzp The AFL-CIO provides material support to Occupy. http://tinyurl.com/65rcyr9
In short, Occupy is a transparent Marxist-organized/led union-backed attempt to gin up Greece style riots (of govt worker unionists). You, yourself, advocate gutting the First Amendment and espouse some Animal Farm-like “equality under the law” standard.
Fortunately, polls show most Americans don’t support Occupy. And the more they know (and the more violent OWS becomes), the less they’ll support it,
Rogue Elephant says:
November 19, 2011 at 12:42 pm
Also, I think you’re confused about the Citizens United decision:
a) Citizens United upheld political contribution limits.
b) The court struck down political expenditure limits on corporations and labor unions.
c) The court’s rationale for striking down corporate/union expenditure limits is the same as its prior decisions striking down individual expenditure limits – they violate the First Amendment because corporations and labor unions are just groups of people united for a common purpose .
Citizens United along with Kelo v City of New London are the two worst BIG GOV/BIG BUSINESS decisoons to come out of the SCOTUS in the last 100 years.
BOT are widely criticized by close to 90% of Amrica. And NO Rogue they are not “just groups of people united for a common purpose”, they are large, multi nation for the most part, coprs who have no interest in the common welfare of society as a whole. The GOV should, and can, get those large bribes out of the system or our country will implode, like we are right now.
“When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” ― PJ O’Rourke
The answer is less government and more freedom, not more government and less freedom. So long as government enjoys great power over the economy, there will be corruption. Attacking Free Speech will not change that.
The US enjoyed economic liberty, protected by due process, until the New Deal court. Economic liberty protected the right to make a living, and limited government by subjecting economic regulation to strict judicial scrutiny. Since then, economic regulatory has expanded, and corruption along with it – no surprise.
You can’t fix the problem of overpowerful government, by attacking free speech (political expenditures and contributions).
[...] This article was first published at http://www.calwatchdog.com. [...]
Our looming debt crisis is not the result of too much Free Speech. Unsustainable entitlements (including Social Security and Medicare) are rooted in the New Deal and Progressive policies. Our looming pension crisis has its origins in New Deal labor law (wrongly adopted by the states for govt workers). TBTF policy is rooted in the New Deal’s FDIC, where taxpayers backstop the banks, who are regulated by the Fed (another Progressive institution).
The Fed is at the heart of much of our problems. The Fed’s purpose is to finance deficit spending (the purpose of all central banks). It represents a corrupt banking cartel that is intricately intertwined with the federal government. It represents central planning of the money supply, a proven failure. The Fed has the central role of regulating the banks, another failure.
Attacking free speech won’t fix this corruption, won’t restore sound money, or fix our economy. It will likely only do the opposite, muzzling the critics of corrupt government.
Our looming debt crisis is not the result of too much Free Speech. Unsustainable entitlements (including Social Security and Medicare) are rooted in the New Deal and Progressive policies. Our looming pension crisis has its origins in New Deal labor law (wrongly adopted by the states for govt workers). TBTF policy is rooted in the New Deal’s FDIC, where taxpayers backstop the banks, who are regulated by the Fed (another Progressive institution).
Rogue Elephant- you are to fast to ONLY blame pne party while not even holding Republicans slightly responsible. I actually agree with you on the entitlements-they have grown way too fast as the populations receiving them have picked up a larger and larger share. Our current pension crisis is in the public sector, not private sector and had nothing to do with New Deal labor laws and everything to do with public unions buying off the legislators. TBTF is not even close to being from the New Deal, it was from Bush and Obama who BOTH shoved that garvage down the American peoples throat. TARP was opposed by a whopping 94% of Americans yet it still received a green light. QE I & II and most likely III are more garbage from the same pile……..
Share the blame Rogue, there is plenty to go around.
BTW- your buddy Jerry Clown has a new tax plan, with more “temporary taxes”, the temporary taxes that last forever. It involves raising the sales tax. Good luck JB, it will never pass. Not when GED cops, FF and prison guards are comping $200K-$300K/year while 22% of the state has been/is unemployed for the last 4 – going on 5 – years.
“Attacking free speech won’t fix this corruption, won’t restore sound money, or fix our economy. It will likely only do the opposite, muzzling the critics of corrupt government”
So by your logic – you are in favor of the public labor unions bribing your elected officials with unlimited sums of money so that the public employees continue to get and keep cadillac salaries, benefits and pensions which is all paid for with your tax dollars. You call that “free speech”?
By your logic you seem to think corporations should be categorized as ‘people’ when it comes to political campaign contributions. Apparently, you think that’s ‘free speech’. Goldman Sach’s gave Obama just under $1M for his 2008 election campaign. You think that might be a reason Obama has done nothing to bring the Wall Street rascals to justice?
So if you think corporations should be treated like “people” why aren’t they prosecuted like “people” when they commit wrongdoings?
Corruption cannot exist without the money.
Corruption is a big reason our society is getting flushed.
Why is a corporation allowed to provide just one candidate with nearly $1M?
That’s not ‘free speech’. That is literally owning our political and justice systems.
The US enjoyed economic liberty, protected by due process, until the New Deal court. Economic liberty protected the right to make a living, and limited government by subjecting economic regulation to strict judicial scrutiny. Since then, economic regulatory has expanded, and corruption along with it – no surprise.
Rogue, while I agree with many things you say, I think you are wrong on some of your posted facts. The New Deal was hacthed in response to the Great Depression in the 1930′s. The US did not enjoy “economic liberty, protected by due process”, but instead was in a major depression due to unregulated greed by the top 1%, it was actually AFTER the New Deal laws were passed that we rebounded, but much of that was because after 1945 we were manufacturing 89% of ALL the worlds goods, because Europe, Russia and Japan did not have a single factory left standing, China made nothing then. We owned the world by default in a way, has been going downhill ever since. But that was not because of the New Deal but WWII and total destruction of the planet.
So if you think corporations should be treated like “people” why aren’t they prosecuted like “people” when they commit wrongdoings?
Good point, when was the last time a corp did serious time in prison?????
BTW-I also want to know when the last time a “person” lived to be 200 years old or made $30 Billion in profits in a single year like Exxon did???
The pension crisis is rooted in the New Deal because what the states did was transplant the NLRA (pro-union, forced unionism, forced dues legislation) from the private sector to the public sector. (The NLRA should be repealed and the NLRB abolished, in any case).
TBTF is rooted in the New Deal and Progressive (FDIC, Federal Reserve) policies because it was these policies that a) put taxpayers in the position of backstopping the banks and b) created the symbiotic relationship between the banks, the monetary system, and deficit spending.
When the 2009 crisis hit, we had an actual opportunity to reform the system. Instead, Bush (no conservative) and the Democrat Congress doubled down on the corrupt, failed system, kicking the can a little further down the road. Obama did the same, while raising crony capitalism to epic heights.
The eurozone crisis may well spark another (even larger) 2009-style banking crisis. At that point, we should join together to fight to reform the money and banking system (including sound money) – and not by surrendering to some global monetary governance system (UN/EU-style Fed corruption, in spades) nor by surrendering our liberties (including free speech) nor sovereignty.
“The eurozone crisis may well spark another (even larger) 2009-style banking crisis. At that point, we should join together to fight to reform the money and banking system (including sound money) – and not by surrendering to some global monetary governance system (UN/EU-style Fed corruption, in spades) nor by surrendering our liberties (including free speech) nor sovereignty”
In principle, we are pretty much on the same page here. However, it is important to note that the Eurozone problems are partially a result of the financial shennanigans that originated in the United States. The euro governments also made unsustainable promises to their citizens that were impossible to keep. And now they are paying the price.
The fact is we cannot wait until a Eurozone meltdown to unite as a people and protest the incredibly corrupted financial system in the United States, Rouge. That is like a cancer patient waiting until his disease progresses to a Stage IV level before he begins his medical treatment. These crazy squabbles between the Tea Party and the Occupy movement is so counterproductive, particularly when both sides have a lot more in common than most people recognize.
bee,
how does OWS plan to do anything if there are no leaders as you stated?
someone will have to start the change process and with all the numbers of people protesting they should at least start with creating an “initiative group” to implement their needs to change government.
you’re not going to be taken seriously as the media has made the 99% out to be.
is there a charter or by-laws posted for everyone to fully understand the mission statement of the OWS?
OWS cannot survive if it doesnt have any teeth to represent itself in an organized semi-professional appearance.
throwing bricks and burning etc. isnt going to change anything.
“how does OWS plan to do anything if there are no leaders as you stated?”
The Occupy protesters have succeeded in getting YOUR attention and the attention of the nation, haven’t they, doug?
“someone will have to start the change process and with all the numbers of people protesting they should at least start with creating an “initiative group” to implement their needs to change government”
You haven’t been an an Occupy event like I have, have you, doug? There were LOTS of people protesting the government there. LOTS of conservatives just like me. But it wasn’t just the government who was responsible for the corruption and massive fraud that brought the economy down, doug. Wall Street and the elite business moguls were in it neck deep. And to deny that would be the epitome of either ignorance or disingenuousness.
“OWS cannot survive if it doesnt have any teeth to represent itself in an organized semi-professional appearance.
throwing bricks and burning etc. isnt going to change anything”
There’s that denial again, doug. The Occupy movement continues to draw huge crowds. The one in NYC last week drew well over ten thousand. The brick throwing and burning was perpetrated by a minute minority in the crowd – probably infiltators and anarchists doing their best to smear and taint the movement.
Even when brutally sprayed in the face with mace by cops from a bear cannister at UC Davis the protesters refrained from committing acts of violence on the cops or on the property, huh doug? So that proves your claim to Occupy violence is bogus in the bigger picture. You also have an agenda to project the acts of a minute few on an entire movement. You know it’s bogus. So do I. And so does anyone else who is honest with himself.
“But it wasn’t just the government who was responsible for the corruption and massive fraud that brought the economy down, doug. Wall Street and the elite business moguls were in it neck deep. And to deny that would be the epitome of either ignorance or disingenuousness. ”
okay, i get your point. OWS wants to bring fraud to court for prosecution.
then limit the size a corporation can grow? or limit its ability to back representatives to congress? OWS wants to eliminate lobbyists also?
i’m with most people here too about congress using insider info with buying and selling stock – that is wrong and illegal.
i just don’t understand how OWS is going to change laws and seek due process if it doesnt work within the law (ie recall elections etc). to meet its goals.
like third party politics, i’d like to see what they stand for in the forum of a list, minus all the convoluted media hype.
is this group for me? not at the expense of killing capitalism.
“okay, i get your point. OWS wants to bring fraud to court for prosecution.
then limit the size a corporation can grow? or limit its ability to back representatives to congress? OWS wants to eliminate lobbyists also?”
Ok, doug. Why bring murderers, rapists, bank robbers, drive-by shooters, car thieves, etc… to justice? Aferall – we would have to house them, feed them and provide medical care for them for the rest of their lives at taxpayer expense, right? So why not just give them a pass like you apparently want to provide immunity to Wall Street financial terrorists and the elite business community? Why have any laws at all, doug?
“i’m with most people here too about congress using insider info with buying and selling stock – that is wrong and illegal”
Insider trading is not the only crime that was committed, doug. What about outright fraud by KNOWINGLY packaging up defective investments with toxic mortgage backed securitie and selling it to customers under the pretense that they were fine investments geared for investment growth? If I were in the candy business and I sold you a package of 20 individually wrapped purported chocolates and 16 of those purported chocolates were actually horse crap – would you have a case against me?
What about some TBTF banks fully admitting in Federal court that they willfully laundered hundreds of billions of cartel drug proceeds, yet no one went to jail for it, doug. Do you want to overlook criminal prosecution for such a crime because it would “limit the size that a corporation could grow”?
Is that the world you want to live in, doug?
“i just don’t understand how OWS is going to change laws and seek due process if it doesnt work within the law (ie recall elections etc). to meet its goal”
By and large, OWS does work within the law. Hundreds of thousands have participated with a very low relative incidence of violence or destruction of property.
MLK and his protesters practiced lots of civil disobedience that prompted a revolution when it came to civil rights and the manner in which minorities were treated in this country, doug. Would you have preferred that MLK played by all the rules of society and that blacks were still using separate toilets and drinking fountains in America?
“is this group for me? not at the expense of killing capitalism”
But we aren’t talking “capitalism” here, doug. We are talking CRONY capitalism. Two completely different concepts alltogether.
So you are willing to allow corporations and Wall Street financial terrorists to continue their crime spree so that the American taxpayers will continue to be FORCED to bail them out when all the dirt is exposed?
Is that what you want, doug?
bee,
i’m not in favor of crony capitalism. corruption exists in all governments. hard fact.
can you give us a bullet form list of what exactly OWS wants to achieve?
i hear of wiping mortgages clean and free college and jobs for everyone. is this what OWS stands for?
“i’m not in favor of crony capitalism. corruption exists in all governments. hard fact.
can you give us a bullet form list of what exactly OWS wants to achieve?”
I didn’t think you would directly address any of the points that I made in my response to your post, doug. You folks never do. When you have no reasonable counterargument I just assume that you’ve been stumped.
As I’ve stated over and over again – the overriding themes I have seen at the Occupy events are:
1) Equality under the law
2) Lobbyist reform to get the dirty money out of politics so that the corrupted polticians can’t be purchased by the highest bidder.
Are those what you would call ‘Marxist’ ideals, doug?
“i hear of wiping mortgages clean and free college and jobs for everyone. is this what OWS stands for?”
There are probably a few who think that. But those aren’t what I would call primary objectives of the movement.
You see, doug – if you would look for similarities instead of differences you might see the glass half full. But since most people have political agendas going in – all similarities would immediately get discounted to zero.
Face it. You seem to be a status quo guy. You want to same old corruption and financial raping of Main Street to continue on, don’t you?
Just be up front with us so we all know where one another stands, ok?
bee,
your numbered points is what i was looking for. simple.
i’m with you on those for sure. i wont call those marxist.
i have a problem with “There are probably a few who think that. But those aren’t what I would call primary objectives of the movement. ” does that mean you personally or does that mean OWS does want those as well? those points would be on the list of bullets for OWS goals as you stated under #1 #2.
and bringing up MLK as leader of civil rights is not addressing any of your points. but, you see, he was a leader. you stated OWS has no one in charge.
thats my point regarding OWS, it will need leaders to make changes.
this status quo guy says:
no to organized labor unions
pension reform
lower taxes to broaden small business
wall to protect our borders
legal verification to work and vote
no anchor babies
ability to install my own solar panels without the government to deflate the value
no government subsidized green projects, those should be to small business
more money for education
make people work for their welfare
gays should be able to get married and divorced like everyone else
women have a choice
term limits to government employees
no government union workers
reinstate PE and trade classes for schools
reform the congress and “crony capitalism”
a fair tax system for everyone
ok?
doug,
Occupy is a huge movement with a wide political spectrum. You aren’t going to agree with everyone there. That is the nature of large organizations that cross political lines. That’s life. I certainly don’t agree with all people who participate in the Occupy events. But I see MANY common denominators – TWO OF WHICH – I noted in my prior comment. You agree with them too!
Occupy has certainly made progress. Much more so that the Tea Party has. There is MUCH more awareness NOW about the corrupted society we live in than there was before Occupy started. AWARENESS IS PROGRESS! As our economic system continues to collapse under our debtload that is NOT being addressed more people will connect the dots and more will join the Occupy movement!
I thinks it’s a good thing that Occupy is, by and large, leaderless. Once a leader is appointed then malcontents from either side can start with their arrows and potshots – and look for dirt to taint the movement. So I think it’s smart.
Listen, many of your bulletpoints are praiseworthy, doug. As I told you before. I am a conservative. So I happen to agree with much of what you say. And there is a large contingent in the Occupy movement who feel as you do too – believe it or not.
Life is never perfect, doug. We must negotiate in our jobs, in our marriages, with our children, with our neighbors, with our local governments, with social networks, etc…. What gave you the false notion that Occupy would meet all your needs? But you have already agreed that you do have some similar positions. Why not start there and build?
The alternative is the collapse of our political and economic systems, doug. Is that what you want? I sure don’t. I want the mess cleaned up. I want to live in the nation that I was born in – not the in nation that we have become.
Seek solutions, doug. Not differences. Don’t try to pick fights. Do what you can to bring people together and come to rational compromises.
Occupy???????????? Organization??????????????
Surely you jest.
“Occupy???????????? Organization??????????????”
That’s the best you can come up with in this discussion, Andy?
Best to just remain on the sidelines with your hands in your pockets.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving.
Rogue elephant writes:
“The Tea Party shares my goals of limited government and values liberty.”
Really? You mean, their zealous anti imigration policies? Their support for American imperialist war? Their support for anti terrorist legislation, regardless of civil rights violations? What was what you said…”limited government and values of liberty”? My ass!
“You mean, their zealous anti imigration policies?”
All civilized nations vigorously protect their borders and their citizens from illegal invaders, Sergio. This is a worldwide phenonomen. You are the oddball here, I’m afraid.
“Their support for American imperialist war?”
The ordinary Tea Party members I know are vehemently against nation building and participating in foreign wars like Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan – especially for extended periods of time.
” Their support for anti terrorist legislation, regardless of civil rights violations?”
It was the Obama administration that extended the Patriot Act indefinitely. Is Obama a Tea Partier? Again, most Tea Partiers I know hate the Patriot Act. Where exactly do you get your misinformation?
I corroborate beelzebub’s comments. I am a Tea Party sympathizer, and really more Libertarian than most.
As a student of history, I abhor the idea of having governments “do something” to solve social ills.
I hate our “police” function, throwing wasteful military powers around the world, because our “allies” don’t want to clean up their messes.
We have thousands of years of history to realize three things:
1. “bread and circuses” do little to elevate the poor
2. militaristic adventures rarely gain more than they lose a society (at home)
3. devaluing currency is a precursor to collapse
We’ve let a massive, intrusive government pick winners and losers, and control all aspects of our lives. It sucks